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How Easy Is It To Convert Old Locos To DCC?
Phil asks readers:
“I have been out of the hobby for about 18 yrs now. I am planning my next layout and am confused on everything I read on DCC, except that DCC seems to be the way to go. With all of my older HO locos is it better to convert them to DCC, or start all over again from scratch and build up another roster of locos with DCC already included? Thanks for the time to respond.”
29 Responses to How Easy Is It To Convert Old Locos To DCC?
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I made the conversion last June. Had mostly Atlas engines and purchased some 5 function decoders from Nce and converted 6 engines. Then added some sound to 2 with MRC. I have not found a sound decoder I like as yet. So, I purchased Broadway limited units and the sound is great Paragon 2 have 28 functions it makes all the difference. If your old units are of good quality some may be worth the time to convert but you will end up with an old engine with old technology. Now all I run are my BRoadways. The only draw back with them is they are lighter than Atlas so I have had to add weight to get the same pull as Atlas. So to summarize, keep the best and sell the rest and invest in newer units with new technology.
IMHO, buy a couple of the newest DCC locomotives to get your new DCC layout up and running. This will allow you to concentrate on getting the layout DCC infrastructure just right and avoid the initial frustration with converting the older locos. That can be a huge distraction!
As the new layout and operations with DCC become stable, then start the conversion of older locos as time permits.
If you really want to run the old locos up front, have one of the commercial DCC conversion guys do a few of yours, and concentrate on getting the layout operational.
Thanks Dale, this makes the most sense, out of the many opinions on the subject. Really looking forward to getting DCC set up, and the conversion project down the road with make an awesome tinkering opportunity.
Some locos are fairly easy to convert. The old Blue Box Athens for example are not too hard to do. Many Kato locos have a removable circuit board that has a “drop in” replacement. Things from much older are harder to do. You can look up a number of conversion charts which will tell you what you should use. Best of luck – btw if you are using a Digitrax system, they have a way to allow one non-DCC loco to be used which I do sometimes with my older locos that I could not convert. On my home layout I replaced one of the old twin cabs with the DCC so I can always switch over to DC instead. On the Museum layout everything is DCC.
That really depends on the individual loco and your current skills. Most loco’s I’ve converted were completed with few problems. Basically, the smaller the loco the harder the install.
I would only consider converting a loco to DCC if it ran well especially at low speed. If it doesn’t then I would try to make it run better first, DCC will not make a bad loco run well. If you can comfortably disassemble and re-assemble the loco to fix problems then you should be able to isolate the motor and connect a few wires.
A few points to check BEFORE you start;
1. Make sure it runs well, maybe give it a service.
2. Check the stall current of the motor and make sure the DCC decoder can handle it or change the motor and/or decoder
3. Consider replacing bulbs with LED’s
4. Make sure the DCC decoder will fit. Some decoders get hot drawing a lot of current with older motors so take that into account.
5. Check the electrical pickups and consider adding all wheel pickup if possible.
6. Decide if you want sound as it requires an enclosed speaker which also requires more space. I generally stay away from sound only decoders due to programming issues.
7. Test the decoder BEFORE installing it. You can easily place it between the DCC command station and the (isolated section of) track and run the ONE loco only, nothing else, to test the decoder and loco. Track wires to the command station and motor wires to track.
There are other points but I think these are the main ones.
And always have fun otherwise you are doing it wrong,
Carlo.
You mean I can see if a decoder works without it being installed in a locomotive? And how is this done again and what about a sound decoder ? Thanks in advance
The SoundTraxx Tsunami Digital Sound Decoder Installation Guide includes a section about testing the motor stall current (as well as other installation considerations), which can be found on page 7: http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/tsuinstallation.pdf
Phil,
Yes convert as you go. I am sure it will be a learning process for you But YES you will be glad you did go DCC. You will have to do some work on your layout if it is some existing one as good power is the key to your success. Buss wiring should follow under the rails and regular feeders up to the rails.
As far as your existing engines, You may want to get a hold of at least one that is already DCC equipped already to get you something ready to go and learn to work the engine. Does not have to be expensive and does not have to be a lot of extras like sound. You will be moving into that soon enough.
For converting your old engines, First get your old engines cleaned up and some running time on them in Standard DC and see what works well for you. If it is a poor running engine it will be poor even in DCC. So pick some that for 1. works decent, and 2 has some room to install a decoder. There is nothing like trying your first one with hardly any room to do it. You can do that as you get more experience. Almost all DC engines had their motors mounted right to the frame. You MUST insulate the motor from the frame. You will no longer be sending your power direct to the motor. Instead you will be sending it straight to the computer chip. Usually pulling the motor and insulating it from the frame with electric tape of some kind. your track power from the wheels will go straight to the chip. from there the chip feeds certain wires to the motor contacts and others to lights. Power from DCC is a few volts higher and you will get some light bulbs burn out quicker. There are usually resisters placed into the wiring from the chip to the light bulbs. I have already burned out a few older bulbs. You will eventually want to install LED bulbs and they have to have a resister unless they are already done for you.. Believe me it is well worth it.
Most DCC systems will run a standard DC engine on a zero zero code and you can do that for a short time to see how your DC engine might perform under DCC. But caution here, as you don’t want to run very long and you defiantly don’t want to stay in a stopped position as the power is on constantly even if you are parked. Some manufactures don’t want you to do that at all and some KATO engines will state that on the box.
SO yes convert those better DC engines, Yes get you one or two that is already wired so you can play and learn. Programing is a big part of it. And go get your older engines one at a time and keep them in the inventory. They are worth it… I plan to put a inexpensive decoder in a Thomas engine which is a cheap motor but on a zero zero code of DCC it is very controllable where on DC it only runs fast.
Among ones I have purchased ready to go. Don’t waste your old fleet Go for it, from Newman
There is one major error in one of the above messages. The max stall/draw amps has to be under 1 amp. If it is over 1 amp, you will blow the decoder every time it stalls. You can try reworking the open frame motors with rare earth magnets or replace motor with a new CAN motor.
DCC uses digital AC current, so it can damage a DC engine. Only one system that I have heard of will run one DC engine. An alternative to isolating motor is to isolate the brushes from the pickups.
DCC has two parts: the engine decoder and the control system. All engine decoders work with all systems, but each system does not work together (NCE, Digitrax, Bachmann controllers can not be cross matched). NCE is easier to use since it uses english when programming. The other systems you almost need to be a computer programmer to use.
I found your information very useful. I got my sounds train set out a few years ago, it was thirty some years old. I put it on a board and have been expanding it every once in a while. I have a few Dcc trains, a couple I have converted. Now I am installing sound on some of them, I also have train engines that came with sound. your information fits right in with what I am doing . Thanks.
I would not convert a good running DC system to DCC “because it is the way to go”. DC has some real advantages over DCC. You can run your present locos without having to convert anything. I think you will find DC to be much less expensive than DCC. You can usually troubleshoot circuit problems with DC with your eyeballs. No programming is needed. DCC requires a fairly high voltage to be on the rails at all times the railroad is in operation: a potential safety hazard.
Some DC locos are available with onboard sound. I operate with a Kato Analogue Sound Box. This provides sound at the operator’s station that can be tailored to the type of locomotive being run. It also provides horn, bell, brake sound, air compressor, choice of horns, coupling sound. Engine sound is determined by load on the unit rather than by throttle position (it senses load on the motor). This system also imparts momentum effects.
Another advantage of the sound at the operator’s station is that a fair-sized speaker can be used because it is not in the locomotive. This is especially important in N scale, where speaker size is greatly limited. I am a retired locomotive engineer and know what these things are supposed to sound like. The Sound Box has output connections to hook up large remote speakers. I have seen model railroads with multiple speaker-equipped steam locomotives running at once. It sounded like a room full of sewing machines.
In DC, when you turn a block off, the track receives zero power. Likewise, when you shut the throttle to zero, zero power is being sent to the track. Direction is determined by polarity. You do not have to program anything.
I built my present model railroad in 2009. DCC was briefly considered. I think DCC is greatly overrated by the model press because of pressure from advertisers who make DCC systems and locos. An early claim for DCC was “you can run your entire railroad with only two wire connections”. Well you can do that in DC too, if that is what you really want. Truth is, DCC requires at least as many track feeders as DC because it is so sensitive to voltage drop.
Les
I bought a couple of DCC locos first and got everything working correctly then did a conversion on one engine to see if I got it right the first time However I had borrowed a couple of publications to help me get the wiring right and with the instruction sheet that came with the decoder it was quite easy, My next conversion is a three truck Shay.
I beleive that DCC is the way to go. There are two main advantages on DCC. Track is always powered so you coaches will have the internal lights on and your locos will keep the lights on even when stopped. Unless you have a very big layout you do not need to brake it in sections just to have the trains running in diferente directions. Directions does not depend on pollarity but on the command sent from the control station.
Some automation can be easier to do with DC (ex. when a relay is wired parallel with green light on a signal you may cut the power and the train will stop and go if the green light is off or on but the lights will go out). Lenz (or compatible decoders) have automatic breaking facilities that will make the train stop if it finds DC or assymetric DCC signals. The last one is even direction dependente so if the train moves towards a red signal it will stop if it moves oposite to the signal it will run. This allows do keep the type of automation done on DC but keep the avantajes of DCC.
These lens decoders are a little more expensive (30€ no sound) but it may pay if you are keen on automated layouts. If you do not care much about automation then simple cheap decoders are available in the market (12 – 15€]. Hattons have a theire own “white brand” decocers on this range.
They are good idea when the loco does not worth much but you want to still use it on DCC upgraded layout. Some DCC controllers state that running DC locos is possible for one unit but I think is easy you make a mistake while controlling the locos and burn the DC motor. If you go DCC than all shall go DCC.
You should look at the points you are using. Live frog points may imply re-wiring of the point. If insulfrogs are used then it should be OK. DCC is very demanding on good contact connections. The smaal power uts that do not afect DCC are an importante nuissance with DCC.
So clean tracks and wheels and good power pick up system on the locos is very importante.
About converting the locos If it runs OK on DC and you like the loco it is not dificult. Of course you should get one DCC loco that is running OK just to be sure that your layout is working OK. Then you have a good testbed to test your converted locos.
Of course DCC may cost you some more Money.
Much more may be said of course.
Jorge
I’ll try to make this short and to the point. Years ago (many) I started out with DC, Hey, it was great! But that was before I found out about DCC. What a great concept. I can have several engines sitting on my layout and decide which one to run by pressing one button, while the others sit and wait for me to decide if I want to run them as well.
One Christmas, my son bought me a Bachmann GP-40 with DCC on board. It was a great gift, but I had no DCC anything to run it. But it ran under DC. After a time I decided to find out what it was all about so I went to ta-da “EBAY” and bought an EZ-Command controller so I could find out if it is something I wanted to do. I had the one engine that was DCC, so I bought a controller with an engine for under $100.00. And from that day forward it has been “Katie bar the door, I’m going for DCC. Like you all, my Loco’s were DC, with the exception the one my son bought and the one I just purchased, so I had to consider if I wanted to buy an engine that cost way more than I thought was reasonably priced. So I started looking into putting Decoders in myself. I have engines including Blue Box Athern, AHM Steam & Diesel, Model Power, (non-Tyco) Mantua, Walthers and of course the old stand by Tyco’s. So I started looking on YouTube for anything about converting any of them to DCC. Atheran is out there, plenty. So, I went to my local Hobby Shop and talked to the owner and he sold me a couple of Decoders that are only 4 function and cost around $17.00. SO I watched the video’s and learned how to convert the Atheran’s, which are fairly easy to do and did my first conversion and I ain’t looked back since. As I mentioned all the different brands that I own, I was determined to convert what I could. So far I have been able to convert all the different ones I mentioned, except the Tyco’s. They will require more thought and work, “IF” I decide to do those. Problem was, I couldn’t find any video’s on some of mine, so I just decided that I would dive into them myself and see how that worked. I now have Atheran, Model Power, Mantua, Walthers and AHM converted to DCC and so far I haven’t been disappointed with my conversions. I took the plunge and don’t regret it. What I have are fine with me. Do I want one of those $200 – $300 engines? You bet I do. Will I buy one? Not for awhile. Retirement don’t allow me to be frivolous with my (our) money. I’ve been married 49 years and want to keep it that way (lol). I do have ONE with sound. A Bachmann F-7 from the wife for $100.00 and I love that thing. Brings back memories when I first hired on the railroad as a Firemen. Anyway, I have made a few video’s of my conversions and put them on YouTube and plan on more as I get them converted, because there just aren’t any for the ones I wanted to convert. Isolation is the big issue with conversions and some require more work then the others and some require grinding some of the frames to make Isolation happen. But in the end, I think it has been worth it. Video’s I’ve posted are Bachmann, Mantua & Walthers. Not the greatest video’s out there, but tell how I did mine. The MOST important thing in all this and what has been posted is, It’s your railroad, do it the way you want it. It’s YOUR decision.
Sorry, my making it short fell off somewhere, so I do apologize.
JT
I agree with all that is said above…BUT…my advise is… buy one good make loco with sound, direction, and lights. Learn all the fun stuff that DCC offers. Then decide to buy more locos OR buy decoders and install in ONE of your old ones to see if you like doing that process . IOH!!!! my biggest suggestion……go WIRELESS!!! so much better than corded.
I was out of trains for 50 years…my first set was a Lionel 3 track with steam locomotives. In the 50 year gap I became an electrical engineer and quite quickly saw the benefits of DCC so I started building a system from scratch. So far I have all my signals, turnouts and 6 locos all programmed with Digitrax hardware and a laptop computer running RR&Co Train Controller software. I can run all 6 locos simultaneously, automatically with no collisions.
I picked up a couple used locos without DCC and converted one of them. Not that easy trying to squeeze the board under the shell of the loco, when it wasn’t designed for such. Also, after I did this I realized I put a good decoder in a crappy loco: only one motor, no flywheels, certainly not like the ones I bought with decoders installed at factory. My opinion? Buy new locos DCC equipped or at least DCC ready.
I have had good luck converting 2 diesels. I have not personally tried a steamer. I model a specific railroad, the DM&IR which used some steam locos which were not common to other roads. So I have quite a few brass locos, all manufactured in the mid-late 60s. I have had one converted to DCC and it is not cheap. Unless you have a specific loco to convert from DC to DCC, I don’t recommend it. In the long run it is cheaper to purchase a loco with DCC already installed. There are really good deals to be had on DCC locos if you shop right. I recommend e-Bay, Factory Direct Trains, Trainworld, half-price Hobbies, The Broadway-Limited Imports website, the Walthers website and MIcromark. Generally you can get a DCC loco at 2/3 to 1/2 the MSRP. Kalmback books has several books on installing/using DCC. Initially, DCC is quite a bit more expensive, but I think the increased operating capabilities and hearing locos with prototype sound is really worth it. Also, we all know that technology doesn’t stop. I think it will become more and more difficult to find new DC locos.
I would not mod existing locos at first. Buy some locos of your type, etc that are factory set-up with DCC sound decoders. Then, at a later date, you can modify if desired. There are DC fans still out there, because they had a working system, but DCC is really the best way to go. There is some expense involved; check out HOGZtrains.com or Tony’strains.com for best prices. I would recommend an NCE system-their platform is the most robust and customer service is at a high level. Do some research first-visit some DCC clubs in your area first. Find out first hand. Modifying locos can be frustrating. I chose to modify old brass locos for DCC and LED’s, new motors, and used only sound decoders so I had to add speakers, drill for sound holes, etc. It is daunting to get a good motive roster in operation in this manner.-bill
One problem that you may run into has to do with the power requirements of older, “open-coil,” electric motors. I tried to fit a DCC chip to a Hornby Duchess from the 80’s and found that it barely moved. Apparently, there are chips that provide more power, but you have to search for them.
For me, converting older DC locos to DCC was rather disappointing. They don’t run very well in DCC. Older motors were not 5 pole or skew wound as the newer DCC motors are so slow speed is not that slow. I took the converters out of a couple of them.
My layout consists of two loops. Either loop can be run DC or DCC by throwing a switch. That way I run my old locos in DC and my new ones in DCC.
FYI, you can run DCC locos in DC. There’s a CV setting that has to be programmed.
You don’t mention the scale of your engines/layout so I’m guessing its G scale. IMHO I like the Phoenix sound systems for sound and the Digitrax system(s) for DCC.
The plus of DCC is that you can run more than one train on the same track with separate control of each on one controller. Plus, you can actually run two trains on the same track in opposite directions so that an east bound would be heading towards a west bound and then you could actually pull one over to a siding to let the other pass ( like in real life). You can run more than one train on DC but you have no way to truly monitor/match their individual speeds to keep from having one train run up on another.
DCC is the way to go you get sound,light effects you can automate turnuouts etc from a hand held cab. If you have some favorite loco,s you can add sound decoders the better ones are pricey. If you like steam engines , Broadway has a decent selection off steam locos that are great runners . theres a lot of DCC diesel. I personally think DCC with sound makes the hobby much more enjoyable I’ve been running trains sice the late 40″s.
One of the easiest ways to get sound on a layout may be to NOT go to DCC. Rather investigate the new MRC sound systems that work with all kinds of locos. Or possibly try the new KATO Sound Box. Factory Direct Trains for example, offers it for $224.00 and it plugs into a home stereo sound system. If you have a lot of locos that you would like to keep (and they run well), you may find it a lot cheaper to stay with DC and make the whole room come alive instead of just one or two locos.
WOW! Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my question. I am starting from scratch with my layout so I can pretty much do anything I want. I like the idea of getting a few already equipped & then going over my roster. I am only running steam on this layout & a few I have are kind of sentimental so I will try to convert them down the road. I might have to rework some due to no operation in 18 yrs. but there isnt much to do when were snowed inanyway. Thank you all, I’m sure I will be asking more questions down the road. I should have my backdrop painted this weekend & then start on the benchwork.
Phil We all hope we have helped you I am sure. Always welcome to questions. If nothing else We have the experience to tell you what not to do…… Happy Railroading and let us know how it goes….. from Newman
you talk about changing to DCC I am just starting out with an old 027 AC set can it be converted to DCC with out to much problem?
Karl, O27 or 0 scale folks are modernizing to simular type systems… They that kind of things out there but to AC. I have seen big scale clubs operating at shows just like DCC. Although I have not seen much of their systems they are out there from sound to control I have seen some beginning systems in a hobby shop in Evanston, Illinois one time
from Newman
I have ask 2 people and so 1 only came back to me and in essence he said he deals with HO. I have a N scale DC e8#5700920-34078 prr its brown w/ three yellow strips on the side, which I have been trying to get to me its very rare. So in saying I would like to know what is the best decoder w/ sound. If you could help me I would appreciate it. Thanks ever-so-much.
got a second hand Bachmann GRESLEY V2. Class 2 – 6 – 2 locomotive and what to make it a DCC (it is a split chassie ) I have got a Hornby decoder R8249. a ll my track /controller rolling stock are all Hornby,,,,, is it much trouble ,, I no you have to islate the motor from both chassie,s WILL WECOME ANY HELP…DAVID